Fair enough - I don't think we're disagreeing a great deal in terms of them being on the slide. Just maybe about the degree of their drop off. You're right about 18 months having the potential to be a long time in sport too. It has to be given the amount of ground we had to make up to go past them - which we obviously have.

My view is simply that we shouldn't overdo their decline too early, especially when they're missing half a team. Injuries will probably stop them finishing in the top two, but with a few key players back they are still a force to be reckoned with, and I'd make them decent favourites against both Hull KR and Wire away because of what they've done in the past, and their ability to win big games. Even this season we can look to Good Friday as an example for how their defence and intensity can cause anyone problems.

I suppose this is a long winded way of saying that if I were a Saints fan, I'd feel pretty gloomy about their prospects for the next couple of years but actually feel pretty optimistic about doing something this campaign.

I was definitely on the fence with that one - whether its 3 or 4 players it demonstrates the tough spot the St Helens squad is in. 

Agree with you there, he is on the downward curve although to be fair was superb last night. He has been used as a battering ram for years and is most certainly injury prone. 

Also agree with our set up. We have very few 22-28 aged players, Welsby and Lees being the only ones of note. We either have ageing players past their best- Lomax, Walmsley, Paasi, Clark, Sironen, Percival etc or ones who are very young with potential- Whitby, Robertson, Dagnall, Stephens. 


It's the 22-28 age range we desperately need.

They're where we found ourselves under Lam, with guys like Smithies, Havard, Partington, Shorrocks, Byrne etc being asked to do a seasoned pros job, guys like Clubb and Lockers being pretty much done and a number of players who just weren't up to standard. We compounded the issue trying to sign somebody like George Burgess to sit in that in between age group as well. A few Saints fans liked to revel in telling us none of our players were good enough and just as then, there are players in this Saints side that can take them forward and things can turn quickly but they've some rebuild job on in this next year or two. 

7 straight defeats to Wire, 3 each to us and Rovers, 2 straight to Leigh. Saints this season are mostly winning the games that they should win but not the games that they need to win if they expect to be thereabouts for trophies. I don't like to dump on coaches but I don't see how Wellens stays beyond this season without an absolute miracle. But, as others have said, this isn't a situation a change of coach will easily fix. It needs a squad rebuild as well.

I almost feel guilty questioning his inclusion Stu, as I think he probably would be in that group were it not for his wholehearted playing style. Even last night he was still throwing himself at the defence harder than most of your forwards! He's still a talent when fit but, unfortunately for him and Saints, he's not at his best often enough.